Ismail Mohamed Didi, the 25 year-old air traffic controller who was found hanged from the control tower of Male International Airport at 4:00am on Tuesday morning in an apparent suicide, was seeking asylum in the UK for fear of persecution over his lack of religious belief.
Islamic website Raajjeislam reported yesterday that Ismail “was a person inclined to atheism” and had “declared his atheism to his friends.”
The website alleged that Ismail had refused to follow religious sermons.
“This is an issue that a Muslim government should consider,” the website said. “Because when these types of people die, they are buried in the same [cemetery] where Muslims are buried. Their funeral prayers and body washing are also conducted as for Muslims. It is questionable as to whether this is allowed according to Islam.”
Over two emails sent to an international humanitarian organisation on June 23 and 25, obtained by Minivan News, Ismail admits he is an atheist and desperately requests assistance for his asylum application, after claiming to have received several anonymous threats on June 22.
In the emails, he says he “foolishly admitted my stance on religion” to work colleagues, word of which had “spread like wildfire.”
“A lot of my close friends and girlfriend have been prohibited from seeing me by their parents. I have even received a couple of anonymous phone calls threatening violence if I do not repent and start practising Islam,” he said.
“Maldivians are proud of their religious homogeneity and I am learning the hard way that there is no place for non-Muslim Maldivians in this society.”
Ismail claimed he had been “trying for some time to seek employment abroad, but have not yet succeeded. I would already have left the country if I was sure I could meet the required burden of proof in an asylum claim.”
“I cannot bring myself to pretend to be I am something I am not, as I am a staunch believer in human rights. I am afraid for my life here and know no one inside the country who can help me.”
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: ismail mohamed <[email protected]>
Date: 25 June 2010 09:30
Subject: a plea for helpDear sir,
I’m a 25 year-old Maldivian living in Male’. I have been working as an Air Traffic Controller at Male’ International Airport for almost 7 years now.
I started becoming disenchanted with Islam around 5 years ago and am now an atheist. During my transformation, and even now, I am quite the idealist, and when i was confronted about two years back by a couple of my colleagues about my aversion from the daily practices of Islam, i somewhat foolishly admitted my stance on religion.
I had asked them to keep it a secret from the rest of our workforce at ATC, although i now realize i should have known better. It did not take long for everybody at work to find out and since then, i have faced constant harassment in my work environment.
An atheist is not a common feature at all among Maldivians and the word has spread like wildfire since then. It has now come to the point where everyone I know, including my family, have become aware of my lack of belief.
In a society that has always been proud of their religious homogeneity, you can imagine what i am being put through. I have been subjected to numerous consultations with religious scholars and even my closest friends are not allowed to see me.
My company has already begun investigating a complaint regarding me, collecting testimony from fellow workers about my apostasy.
Just 3 days ago, i received two anonymous phone calls threatening violence if i do not start openly practicing Islam.
I am at my wit’s end now. I have been trying for sometime to secure employment abroad, but have not yet succeeded.
The only other alternative i can think of is to flee the country to seek asylum elsewhere. I have already written an e-mail to your organization, and am anxiously waiting for a reply. I found your e-mail address on facebook. I am in dire need of assistance and know of no one inside the country who can guide me.
I would have already left the country if i was sure i could meet the required burden of proof in an asylum claim. I would like to know if you would be able to help me in anyway should i travel to the U.K to seek asylum and what my chances are of making a successful claim.
Thank you for your consideration
Ismail Mohamed Didi
Mohamed Ibrahim, Managing Director of the Maldives Airports Company Limited (MACL), confirmed that Ismail was the subject of an internal investigation last month regarding his professed apostasy.
“I believe his family were also concerned, and tried to give him counselling through religious leaders,” Ibrahim said.
“Management decided it was outside our mandate and referred the matter to the Ministry of Islamic Affairs – we haven’t got a reply. Professionally we took no action – he was a good worker.”
A colleague of Ismail’s told Minivan News on condition of anonymity that his colleagues had learned he was an atheist “more than a year ago”, and while they did not care whether or not he believed in God, “some became irritated at the way he openly insulted God.”
“A complaint was made to the airport company’s human resources department. Based on their report – I saw a copy of the final version a month ago – they found that although he was an atheist, he was not propagating his belief in the workplace and so no action would be taken.”
The source insisted that Ismail was never mistreated by his colleagues about his religious position, “although they were sometimes irritated by the way he addressed God. He was treated as a normal controller and suffered no discrimination,” the source said, explaining that the air traffic controllers were a close-knit bunch who “lived and played together. Everybody was crying and misses him.”
Ismail was part of a large family from the island of Thinadhoo in Gaafu Dhaalu Atoll, the source explained.
“The family is very humble and religious. His mother tried sending him to religious classes and a couple of months back he said he went to see Sheikh Illyas, but just argued with him about religion and stormed out. That’s what he said – I don’t know what was said in person. But it is possible his friends may have distanced themselves.”
Minivan News was unable to confirm whether Ismail visited Sheikh Illyas prior to his death, as the Sheikh was not responding to calls. However Islamic Minister Dr Abdul Majeed Abdul Bari said he was aware that Ismail’s parents had sought religious counselling for their son “because of some problems he was facing in his religious beliefs.”
“They asked for counselling but I think they met a scholar while they were in our office. I was not at the Ministry – this was during the period of [Cabinet’s] resignation. I heard he was not a ministry scholar – I don’t think it was Sheikh Illyas this time. I think he saw [Sheikh Hassan] Moosa Fikry,” Dr Bari said.
Sheikh Fikry, who is the Vice-President of religious NGO Jamiyyathul Salaf, was not responding to calls at time of press. Salaf’s President, Sheikh Abdulla Bin Mohamed Ibrahim, also could not be contacted.
Last moments
Police Sub-Inspector Ahmed Shiyam said Ismail’s body showed no sign of physical injuries.
“Police have taken samples for forensic investigation, we are seeking more information about him to try and determine how this happened,” Shiyam said.
Ismail’s colleague said the 25-year-old had returned from leave shortly before the day he died.
“It seemed like he came to work fully prepared to die,” he said. “Ismail normally took the 6:00am-8:00am shift, but on this day he requested the supervisor give him the 3:00am-5:00am shift.”
“During this time there are no air traffic movements and the tower can be staffed by one person, before operations begin at 5:30am. It seems he wanted the quiet time alone,” he said.
“His mother said she called him in the morning at 5:30am to tell him to pray, but there was no answer. They found his cigarette lighter on the balcony.”
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@ Heck. The verse u quoted fro QURAN (69:44) cannot be applied to any body else other than Prophet Mohamed, and the verse and the subsequent verses which followed says if Prophet Mohamed utter any religious ruling other than what is revealed to him by GOD, he will be punished.
069.044
"And if he had invented false sayings concerning Us,"
069.045
"We assuredly had taken him by the right hand"
069.046
" And then severed his life-artery,"
069.047
"And not one of you could have held Us off from him."
And what most of us...including the "Mullas" of Maldives don't understand is the freedom of religion!
(Quran 2:256) ". Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. "
The question is, why there should not be a place for people who believe in other religions in Maldives. It should be his choice to choose.
We have to change the way we think!
Congratulations! Now the eyes of the whole world are focused on your society.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south+asia-10644685
wow back to 100% "again"!! 😀 i think this is a good sign.. all those who dun believe hang them selves. easy way to get rid of the buggers.
Instead of bashing the victim and insulting the dead man,we need to address and understand why people commit sucide. there are millions of atheists around the world who do not commit death.
It seems this young man comitted sucided due to unipolar depression which is a mental disorder characterised by low self esteem,loss of interest or pleassure in normally enjoybale activities.
He had actually stated the social factors that ultimately lead to his demise. I must say poverty and social isolation is the root cause of most of the sucidal cases in Maldives.
R.I.P. Brother...all the people talking shit about isse here shall die in hell! Whether he is a Muslim or not we shall respect the fact that he is also a human like us.. Thats what Islam is about. Respect! Respect! Respect!
and Firza (a narrow minded Maldivian i guess) learn to respect others first if you are such a follower of Islam. Those who knows to respect other religions and beliefs are the real Muslims. and also shut your ******* mouth and stop comparing him to HITLER.. i guess u know nothing about Hitler or islam. You extremists are causing the real trouble in this society. Just be your self and die as an extremists, i dont give a shit about that and let others live their freedom too.
We will pray for you isse and u will always be remembered! R.I.P
Firstly, my sincere condolences to all those close to Ismail. Suicide leaves a terrible legacy with those near the deceased asking themselves if they could have done more to avert such a final act.
I find reading the posts above deeply disturbing. I have been to the Maldives socially and on business. I know a number of Maldivians from all strata of the community. Out of all of them, I would only regard one as a devout Muslim. The majority only pay lip service to the religion to avoid what Ismail has gone through. When abroad (or on a resort island), many are happy to drink alcohol. In any event, the country is happy to accept huge amounts of money from the tourist industry which relies heavily either directly or indirectly on alcohol sales. A surprising proportion of people I speak to are happy to admit that they are not religious, but would never dare do so in public for obvious reasons.
Those of you who feel this way know exactly what I'm talking about. I just want you to know that you are not alone; you may well be in the majority. Like me, you must wonder how much longer this hypocrisy can be allowed to continue. It is just not honest to carry on as if you are a devout Muslim state while having one of the biggest heroin problems in the world, while making money out of selling a drug (alcohol) of which you apparently disapprove, while boasting one of the highest divorce rates in the world, while paying only lip service to a religion which makes such stringent demands on your inner and outer life (the list goes on and on).
If you could all show the kind of courage shown by Ismail, you would stand up and be counted, and in so doing show the rest of the nation that there are enough of you to make a nonsense of the idea of a 100% Muslim state. Then everybody could live in a tolerant society, consistent with the best values of Islam, or any decent religion, for that matter.
I was thinking of having a honeymoon in the Maldives with my beloved wife to be, but reading this I'd rather not.
I am shocked and disgusted at the muslim comments here. I hope you do know that without tourism the Maldives are nothing.
however, this has happened and alas!
its hard to believe these things are happening through us. this wasnt a murder.. the man hung his self and thats the truth.. what a shame
"Maldives - The sunny side of life..." is now "The dark side of life...".
Missing important facts in the reporting and comments.
Readers may review your comments again taking these two factors into the equation.
I tend to think that the guy was so much trying to publisize himself that he managed to center stage his juorney to Hell/Heaven.
Tragedy.
What about non - muslim tourists? What about non - muslim workers? Are they treated the same?
@yaamyn on Thu, 15th Jul 2010 9:48 AM
@Ashfaq
Y Says:”Your comment and your actions do not add up.”
Me: Why? what does not add up?
Y says:”You claim to respect alternative opinions and beliefs – and yet you choose to latch onto my comment (that doesn’t contain any ‘maligning’ or ‘blackmail’ as you put it) and pretend to be the victim here.”
ME: I’m not pretending to be anything I am not. But you are, my friend
Y Says:”You’re not a victim in this country (nor is there a concept of a ‘majority’ in a state that professes to be 100% Sunni/Salafi Muslim by writ of constitution)”
ME: Who says that? You? I don’t have any reason to believe you or your way of reply with anger out of hatred. But thanks for this reply that proves my point.
Y Says: “My simple, factual statement that religious minorities – whether foreigners or Maldivian – are severely discriminated against by the Maldivian state has been made to sound like some kind of attack on your religion.”
ME: See how the cat comes out of the bag, “My Religion”? No it’s not “My Religion”. In fact it is “My Deen”. Do you and others who hate us get it? I don’t think so, because you seems to be out out your mind and out of touch with the reality. Sorry to say that, but there’s no better way to counter an invalid & illogical argument while you are giving yourself the answer to our claims. You and your like are maligning us and then blackmailing with our “Deen’s principles” OUT OF CONTEXT. I wish you could understand this statement. But will not, because your kind is heedless. Biased, self centered & bigotry is the perfect description.
Y Says:”I appreciate the fact that you added a sentence for the benefit of your jehadi cousins here, but I do not appreciate my comments being misread on purpose.”
ME: Then you should stop posting comments on such open forums. Are you requesting or demanding that you let be given a free ride with your bigotry while you are maligning our “Deen” without even knowing it. Come on! Be practical.
And for those who are using this tread to post all sorts of nonsense comments:
We are believers of Allah, only bowing down to him in submission and to him alone. We don’t want to force our belief to anyone but will not hesitate to say what is “wrong” as wrong. Those who hate us or dislike us may rage in anger and disgust but we have nothing to do with them and their belief. Allah is sufficient for us as our protector.
All the times (ages), and all the creations belongs to Allah.
May Allah give us guidance and forgive us.
@yaamyn
Did you say "..where hard working foreigners who form an important backbone of our country’s economy (teachers, laborers, administrators, waiters) cannot PRACTICE THEIR FAITH OPENLY"
Openly? Where? Under the flag pole in JUHOOREE MAIDHAAN? LOL!
What's your NOOSE size by the way? Have you already prepared it and kept it ready at some secret place? I can switch my duty with you so that you could FINISH it off during the quiet of MIDNIGHT. Give me a buzz any time you are ready!
Condolences to Ismail's family and may he rest in peace.
Ismail was not a bad person, Ismail was born a muslim, Ismail, (holding a very risky position), served the government/people genuinely, Ismail was a Maldivian, died a Maldivian and would be remembered to those who really new him. I knew him, I know his immediate family very well.
Suicide is no surprise to me and I foresee many cases to come. Our family grieved a few years ago, as we too lost a loved young teenage boy on ropes. He didn't have the opportunity to send a mail, but left behind on a wall, reasons for his suicide well written with his own blood. What he wrote was the truth, facts about why teenagers have opted for the rope rather than life, religion or education.
The Family is the first to blame, and for us we accepted it as we neglected him. The fact that a child abuses drugs doesn't justify him to be termed a bad person, we did. The disconnection within families for whatever reasons has been and will always be a cause for friction, stress and emptiness. Parents, unfortunately most are conservative and less learned, tend to 'closeup' their children, impose harsh discipline rules and enforce religion in many aspects. Wrong.
The system is next to blame. How many people aged 40yrs and above reached 'A' levels or did any professional skilled studies? a handful, WHY, the system at that time did not encourage education, did not prepare the youth to face developing world, rather it kept people in belief that religion was the ultimate savior. No schools, no medical care, no social activities in almost all islands (except atoll capital islands) Look at ourselves today, the shameful embarrassing fights at parliament, mockery, personal attacks and so on. Lack of Education, and greediness are the causes!
Ironically, each island even today, has a multi million well built mosques which we appreciate, but god never said we have marble mosques and coral made schools!!! Ismail, our dear boy and many who have given up lives are examples of what is happening in the society. We Maldivians live in secrecy, in denial and biggest pretenders in many cases. There are problems in our houses, our society and ourselves and we pretend as if nothing is wrong. 3 out of 5 parents with teenage kids are having a rough time NOW, but we pretend all is fine, runnisng around with 5kg backs full of books and spend for the IT, phones, etc. These issues must be discussed or we would see more hangings and diversion from religion. Today's children are educated to know that having sex with a nine year girl is child abuse, they know covering the face of a woman is stupidity, and they know that, you must get educated to earn or we end up like Haiti, Somalia and Ethopia. Do you think they will go and sit for hours reciting koran? but yes, they can spend an hour with a parent who educate them about values of life, discipline, respect and humanity. If not, a coffee at seahouse and what follows next....??
Ismail's visits to scholars was a blunder, sermons by imported scholars was yet the worst mistake Maldives has done. WHY? Listen to the recordings and you would find out why. Maldives will remain forever, a 100% muslim country and so we Maldivians. One thing we should be ashamed of ourselves is 'pretending to practice islam'.
Ask a Maldivian waiter or room boy if Maldivians practice Islam. I have seen with my eyes in resorts and abroad on a number of occasions, Maldivians drinking alcohol, taking drugs and womanizing with just kids. It is happening in Male today among top people, and these people will never miss a prayer, a burial, a donation and their official wives in veils. Am I lying? or do you need pictures to prove? STOP HYPOCRISY people, Ismail said his feelings and may be its gods will that he was meant to die that way. We all believe god decides our birth, death and how it happens.
You who call themselves muslims and under darkness you become evil, please stop blaming kids like ismail and others. Stop using religion and blame others, stop pretending by being seen in mosques or donation lists. The money and material you give dont matter, it is your heart and decency to help.
The system, the family backgrounds and religious confusion is the cause of Ismail's death and many to come.
There's no doubt that the promoters of "Atheism" had dragged us in to sort of arguments that we wanted least. We now have enough tensions in our country to "concentrate". One way or another we are being tested.
The perfect opportunity they wanted is garbed out of this pathetic event of a young man committing suicide. Perfectly timed.
Let the disbelievers of GOD know, that we will not get intimidated by such tricks and traps.
We don't want any of us to be unjustly treated.Sadly our moral values and faith has eroded in the past 30 to 40 years.
This is nothing but the prophesied end time scenarios by our beloved Prophet Mohamed (S.A.W).
Only thing we can do now is, try to protect our self with the knowledge of Truth from the Glorious Quran and Authentic Hadhits. And advice each other for truth & patience.
For those who reject our faith:
Are we to believe that " BIG BANG" created a perfect universal system without any intervention of a super being ( We Mulims call him "Allah" {in Arabic, meaning Almighty Creator, God}) who is controlling the affairs of this universe and everything that is created, while it is totally against the scientific law where it is believed that every explosion will result in a chaotic situation. Are we to believe that we are here just to live a greedy life full of our own desires for an average 60-70 years and then end without any repercussions.I can ask several question for which they will never be able to give scientific explanations. But "Insha Allah", we have all the answers. But I don't intend to give a lecture on GOD's existence. If anyone who want's to know they can refer to the correct sources and learn from the stories and incidents around us.
SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).
Surah Fussilat:
"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?" [Al-Quran 41:53]
Source:http://www.islam101.com/tauheed/provingGodExists.htm
-------------------
We(Humans and Jins) aren't created accept to do all that pleases "GOD". This has a very broader meaning. But to simplify: It means do all that is good for our self & others and forbid those things that harms our self and others and not to associate partners with the Almighty "GOD". That is the correct meaning of "Ya'budhoon" or "Ibaadha" that is mistranslated very often as "worship".
This is what the Glorious Quran teaches us.
ISLAM means "Peace acquired by submitting our will to Almighty GOD(in Arabic: Allah)" and a Muslim is a person who follows the Deen of ISLAM. "Deen" is mistranslated to word "Religion" very often because a perfect one single word for Deen is not there in English Language. Deen means "the way of life, code of conduct with the belief in or towards GOD".
Let us all humans unite in a strong bond against "Shaithan" & "Shaithanism",- who is a devoted enemy as informed and warned in the glorious Quran and almost all major scriptures of other faiths as well. The secret game of Shaithan - Deception towards all humankind is at it's peak. Under the disguise of freedom, arts & culture and various other traps the humanity is enslaved to his desires as never before. He had been able to distance us humans from our real purpose of life and from our real belief. Of course for his support there are several amongst us humans who are enslaved and misguided by his deceptions who are now dedicated for him. In his party. We need to call them back to the reality to truth.
THE SLOGAN OF HUMANITY TODAY SHOULD BE, IN MY BELIEF ....
"LET SHAITHAN KNOW THAT WE ARE BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN HUMANITY DEVOTED TO PLEASE ALMIGHTY GOD, FOR PEACE AND REJECT ALL THAT IS WRONG"
We seek refuge from Almighty God against the Shaithan, the accursed one.
THE BIGGEST MISCHIEF ON EARTH:
The "mischief" that was brought upon Europe because of Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin. And for that matter Mao of China as well. And many other tragic incidents recently and in the past. The main cause was that they all believed in themselves as Lords of their own by falsely misguided by the biggest lie that man had ever believed "The Evolution Theory or Darwin's Theory". Lets analyze the history, and learn real lessons out of it. If we are logical and truthful we will find the answers.
The killings and all corruptions on the land is out of desires of the people who does that while being misguided by the "Shiathan".Some may try to dub it as a religious fight or others in the name of nation, pride, money,land and lust.
Instead of fighting amongst us humans, we must realize deceptions of "Shaithan" is the cause. We can be united against him if we are to save the Humanity.
Time is running out. Lets spread the word and save the humanity from yet another "mischief" of "Shaithan".
May Almighty GOD grant as success here and hereafter and save us from the torment of hellfire. May Almighty GOD guide us to the straight path.
PEACE IS BETTER THAN HATRED AND WARS.
We don't need to prove anyone wrong amongst us humans but some sort of actions will need counter actions. That is our human nature.I believe in fact that we must realize there are only two groups of people. Just to broadly identify them to start with: 1 is those who believe in "GOD" and in truth- The party of "GOD" and 2nd is those who are misguided by "Shaithan"(Satan,Iblis,devil-the accursed one) to believe in non-existence of GOD, to believe in others beside "GOD" or in wrong practices in the way of life - The party of Shaithan.
The Only acceptable way of life to Almighty GOD is the peaceful way of life with ourselves and others by submitting our trust and will to him alone (In Arabic it's called "ISLAM). We are advised to do all that is righteous, forbid what is wrong and advice one another to Truth, and advice one another for patience.
---------------------------
If some people are adamant and doesn't believe, there is nothing we can do about it. Only we are to spread the Truth. If Only they knew "to believe and not to believe" is a choice they are making out of "freewill" God had willed for the Humans. Yet, with arrogance and of own desires to prove ones own "correctness" , some will reject the truth, or twist it in any way they want.
Allah knows Best. May Allah forgive us for our errors.
May Allah Guide those who are truthful to the reality.
i think he was hanged to death. period.
@yaamyn
Did you say this?
"Our parents, greatparents and their parents and great grand parents were Dhivehin born in these very islands. We are greater patriots for not abandoning our liberal cultural values in favor of Arab/Afghan cultural practices."
EVEN IF YOUR GREAT GRAND MOMS WENT TOPLESS - you still want to follow them?
Your GOD HEADS are lying at the national museum? You still want to follow them?
What liberal values are you talkign about here?
I have to say you are a VERY ILLOGICAL PERSON.
Thousands of young boys and girls in Maldives need professional psychological help, NOT religious scholars to confuse them more.
Maldives needs to start parent forums/meetings either in schools or under the ward offices to openly talk and learn from each other.
And a warning to politicians, it is a matter of a few years before the pressure within the youth explodes, as jobs and housing gradually being taken over.
The youth changed the communist giant China in a matter of hours. Our children today, will burn the islands in a matter of minutes, tomorrow if nothing is done.
Ok! Here is the deal.
Who is forcing you to live an Islamic life?
Can you all Atheists STOP MALIGNING Islam and Allah in Maldives?
NO! You can't defeat that nasty itch to MALIGN, isn't it?
SO LIVE A DAMNED LIFE!
The old appeals to racial sexual and religious chauvinism, to rabid nationalist fervor –
are beginning not to work. A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with its self is doomed .
Maldives society is heading towards atheism. Although atheists are a minority now, they will be the majority in the year 2050.
Ismail, I hope with all my heart that you find eternal peace in death, since you obviously did not have seem to have had the privilege in your short life.
I feel amazed at the number of insensitive and intolerant comments above from fellow Maldivians. Are we no better than barbarians?
To me Ismail's actions represent all that is brave and noble about personal freedom. He didn't attack someone with a sword. He didn't plant a bomb uncaring about who might get hurt. In fact, he didn't seem to have made any of your lives intolerable. Instead, he took the one thing that is truly his, his life! And he had every right to!
Would you rather your son, brother, friend, or boyfriend kill himself rather than allow them the FREEDOM of PERSONAL BELIEF?
Shame on us. We have failed Ismail... And who knows how many other countless innocent lives will still be senselessly lost?
TO THE GUY WRITING IN CAPS -
WE WILL STAY IN MALDIVES AND WE WILL MULTIPLY AND SPREAD, NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY.
YOUR SWORDS AND YOUR KNIVES WILL NOT HURT US. WE HAVE WORDS. WE HAVE IDEAS AND YOU DO NOT. YOU HAVE JUST YOUR IGNORANCE. WE HAVE CONVICTION. WE HAVE DISCIPLINE.
GOOD NIGHT.
This.
Could.
Have.
Been.
Prevented.
Thats just my point of view.
Oh Well. What do I know.
If you are a Maldivian and don't believe in Islam. Then you really think again. Learn the truth and the real path way of the ALMIGHTY ALLAH have gave all of us. If you cannot believe ALLAH choose the ISMAIL's way as you will be hell fire if not today.
heck,
I've had more fruitful discussions with lamp-posts.
"We are greater patriots for not abandoning our liberal cultural values in favor of Arab/Afghan cultural practices.”
Only you would mistake 'values' for fashion sense.
On the other hand, I do believe that even when our ancestors were INDEED topless, all the men didn't automatically consider it a justification for legitimate rape (as seems to be the case in your model Arab societies)
If you're going to mock our Dhivehi culture - which has been Islamic for nearly a thousand years - then bear in mind that the Arabs were also pagans once.
If we have 'God heads' in our Museum, they have their Pyramids on full display.
Resorting to ridiculous nonsense is expected from people who have no concept of reason to base their arguments on.
Woe be to those who are born of Dhivehi parents, live in Dhivehi raajje, carry a Dhivehi passport, look like Dhivehin by race and ancestry, and still owe their allegiance to some backward foreign culture.
According to a study in the American Journal of American Psychiatry atheists have a substantial higher rate of suicide than people that have some type of religious affiliation.
I think this study shows how rewarding being an atheist can be....like being unhappy, unfulfilled, bitter, depressed, detached, and generally overall miserable people. The posts on this site authored by atheists seem to bare this conclusion out.
RESULTS: Religiously unaffiliated subjects had significantly more lifetime suicide attempts and more first-degree relatives who committed suicide than subjects who endorsed a religious affiliation. Unaffiliated subjects were younger, less often married, less often had children, and had less contact with family members. Furthermore, subjects with no religious affiliation perceived fewer reasons for living, particularly fewer moral objections to suicide. In terms of clinical characteristics, religiously unaffiliated subjects had more lifetime impulsivity, aggression, and past substance use disorder.
Here is the link to the study:http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/cont…
Published by the American Journal of Psychiatry. Hardly a religious organization. Again the reactions by our atheist friends here certainly shows their self-denial and willingness to face reality.For women, Sweden's suicide rate is almost double that of the U.S.
Pitzer College sociologist Phil Zuckerman compiled country-by-country survey, polling and census numbers relating to atheism, agnosticism, disbelief in God and people who state they are non-religious or have no religious preference. These data were published in the chapter titled "Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns" in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, ed. by Michael Martin, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, UK (2005). In examining various indicators of societal health, Zuckerman concludes about suicide:
Concerning suicide rates, this is the one indicator of societal health in which religious nations fare much better than secular nations. According to the 2003 World Health Organization's report on international male suicides rates (which compared 100 countries), of the top ten nations with the highest male suicide rates, all but one (Sri Lanka) are strongly irreligious nations with high levels of atheism.
Ashfaq,
It's utterly pointless to attempt to show light to the willfully blind.
Your brand of 'true Islam' seems to have utterly positioned itself as an enemy of science - the very reason why so many Dhivehin reject it.
Your sentences display such remarkable ignorance of science - and total buying into the tired, worn out propaganda that has been debunked a million times in the last few decades.
I'm not a scientist, and yet I can blow holes in your ridiculous assertions with just a secondary level learning of science.
Here's some choice sentence in your anti-science tirade, that you think is making a point for your religion.
"..to live a greedy life ..for an average 60-70 year.."
That average is a figure that is doubled from a few decades ago. Thanks to science (Immunization, nutrition, medicine, health care, diagnostics, X Rays, MRIs)
In fact, I believe the average life-expectancy in Afghanistan still hovers about the 40 mark.
"BIG BANG.. it is totally against the scientific law where it is believed that every explosion will result in a chaotic situation.."
Eh? You're quoting your ignorance (in fact, not you OWN ignorance, but that of Adnan Oktar and fellow non-scientific ignoramuses) of science to disprove something that scientists overwhelmingly agree upon?
Was the 'Big Bang' even an 'explosion' the way you picture it your mind?
Besides, which scientific law says that explosions result in "chaotic situations"?
I've studied a fundamental law of thermodynamics that states the entropy of a closed system, which is not in equilibrium, will always increase.
The big bang is neither your average-ass imaginary "explosion" (Hint: Read into the origins of the usage of the term 'Big Bang') nor does the law thermodynamics often misquoted by arrogant, science and oxygen-deprived quacks who can't differentiate between Evolution from the Big Bang make even the slightest case for your anti-science stance.
The only other alternative i can think of is to flee the country to seek asylum elsewhere. I have already written an e-mail to your organization, and am anxiously waiting for a reply. I found your e-mail address on facebook. I am in dire need of assistance and know of no one inside the country who can guide me.
the above is what he said in his mail. been a fellow of muslim parent he knew from where he can get truely justice, and even he is ready to FLEE THE COUNTRY TO SEEK ASYLUM ELSWHERE!!!??
sade he used short cut with one way ticket to seek ....... from all mighty ALLHAH
Caution. Chris Crocker seen in area - Proceed with caution.
Hey Heck. Tell your so-called muslim friends to stop MALIGNING Islam and Allah in the Maldives.
I think there should be a very thorough investigation into the death of this individual; and if the harassment and intimidation caused by the staff at the control tower caused this they should be held accountable. After all by their acts they are complicit in his death. I hope the family sues the Malives Airports Company and I hope the staff responsible for harassmnet lose everything they have.
Its really sad that he chose to end his life so tragically. A person with a sane mind wouldn't have done anything like this but obviously he is not a believer in our beloved religion Islam, so its no surprise he chose this path (direct route to hell). And all I know is that due to this damned f****d up government we have now the Maldivians with confused religious beliefs no longer get any help from decent religious .All the screwed up greedy selfish bastards in the government don't care even if this place fills up with Atheist, Christians, or Buddhists. All they care about is Money and power. The are the most corrupted and self-obnoxious people I've ever seen.So as long and Anni the insane and his corrupted fellow dick-tators rule Maldives this crisis wont be solved.
Its really sad that he chose to end his life so tragically. A person with a sane mind wouldn’t have done anything like this but obviously he is not a believer in our beloved religion Islam, so its no surprise he chose this path (direct route to hell). And all I know is that due to this damned f****d up government we have now, the Maldivians with confused religious beliefs no longer get any help from decent religious scholars .All the screwed up greedy selfish bastards in the government don’t care even if this place fills up with Atheist, Christians, or Buddhists. All they care about is Money and power. The are the most corrupted and self-obnoxious people I’ve ever seen.So as long and Anni the insane and his corrupted fellow dick-tators rule Maldives this crisis wont be solved.
@ Mike
Why don't you label your own Christian mothers who kills and slaughters small babies and children as Christian fundamentalists or extremists.. kekeke man your guys are soo grossssss and disgusting. We co exist with all religious beliefs as long as they keep it themselves.... but we are also too aware that your " who knows it all" will try to jeopardize our beliefs and create a physiological trauma among our young people. Fight your own wars on your own regions , fight your own Word War 111 among yourself and get killed in 100s of millions. Don’t export your idealism to other countries and create problem. Men you guys are so violent. We will get extreme and will show you that if you don’t stop your big mouth. Leave our peaceful country and go home. Go and take drugs, go to pubs and have sex, shit you parents, tell lies and spread slander on you land…………. leave us alone.
As for the guy who got killed himself it’s all choreographed by people like Mike who brainwashed young people like Ismail so people like him can get a pretext to through attacks on the peaceful nation and its Islamic culture. Man we know all too well “Mike” this is not Afghanistan, Pakistan or India. Try someplace else..
Hypocrisy is rampant here. And either due to ignorance or sheer stupidity, most are not even ashamed of it.
Most would get flared up, raise voice a few notches, at anyone who does not share muslim beliefs, as if by doing so, he is convincing the nearby crowd how devout a muslim he is. Yet that very person would jump at the next opportunity to have sex with any woman he can get lure to his bed, and would not shy away bragging about it.
Face the reality. Maldives is a dot on the map, with few resources. We depend entirely on tourism and very few other streams for our survival. Prior to the times of tourism, with nothing to talk of actually, the govt did the best they could; Keep people happy by ignorance, suppress any curiosity, exposure, education and turn to religion to be content. And we did that for the past centuries.
Even now, the propensity towards religion are by guys who are less fortunate in life (no real jobs, no family/support), because in doing so, he can level himself with the more fortunate and hard working guys and those who practically works day and night to build their lives. And then they become zealots/fanatics, preaching equality when the only work these fanatics do, is just preach hate sermons and instill bone shaking fear in others. And then they would promote reciting Quran endlessly, with absolutely no idea what they are saying. They also claim that the student who can pronounce arabic 'Gaafu' from deep down their throats is the best. I wonder why they dont suggest abolishing dhivehi language and promote arabic as the local language, because then, we would atleast understand Quran.
As a country we need to let loose the grip on religion. Otherwise it will be like a heavy anchor on progress. Be practical and decide wisely for the growth of the country and people. Educate the people and let them opt/live their own lives. True some will opt other beliefs, but religion is personal. You should never expect that by being 100%, the country Maldives will enter Heaven. We would go there by the merit of the individual. Maldives will probably be the first to be wiped out in the judgement day, irrespective of 100% or 10%. As a community, we need to establish the cultures that enables prosper socially, economically etc. We Maldivians are proud and intelligent. Why not create an environment where the best of them can express their talents, innovation etc.
just because one is too lazy to perform the righteous deeds they prefer being atheist, i wonder if they had to perform regular rituals to be an atheist would they be upto it?
And for the non believers: u sound as if you want to challenge the almighty for creating Islam and Muslims, do you wish to personally face a hurricane or be truck by lightening to prove that your more powerful than the one who created you? how superior are u when u can't even save yourself or a loved one from the tiny virus that can harm u?
the real deal is that those of you who choose to be non believer after being raised as Muslims, are just too lazy to live life your supposed to, and your too lazy to find it out.
wisdom comes to those who want to find it. not ignore it!
God has taken only taken happiness from his heart and look how he ended. I havent met any atheist who keep on insulting others belief. They normally dont care what others think religiously. But this guy who is also a friend of mine cant keep his belief to himself. He will always be the person to start on this topic. We have known about his atheist belief for many years. I think he invited the situation all by himself.
"I am at my wit’s end now. I have been trying for sometime to secure employment abroad, but have not yet succeeded."
I personally have no problem in his belief system. This is not a new thing, denying the truth was there from the beginning of the world. There were messengers, prophets who showed miracles, but still there were people who did not believe in God.
This guy seems to be frustrated or depressed and might have been looking for employment abroad. His claim that he fear for persecution may be to obtain EMPLOYMENT abroad and his suicide could be treated as purely for COMMERCIAL REASONS! Even many Muslims do this to obtain asylum abroad to get better paid jobs!
This happens when someone's mind is controlled by influence of something else.
The bottom line is, HE TOOK HIS PRECIOUS LIFE, JUST BECAUSE HE COULD NOT GET ASYLUM! What a joke!
If I were him, I would live everyday!
@ Mike
Why don't you label your own Christian mothers who kills and slaughters small babies and children as Christian fundamentalists or extremists.. kekeke man your guys are soo grossssss and disgusting. We co exist with all religious beliefs as long as they keep it themselves.... but we are also too aware that your " who knows it all" will try to jeopardize our beliefs and create a physiological trauma among our young people. Fight your own wars on your own regions , fight your own Word War 111 among yourself and get killed in 100s of millions. Don’t export your idealism to other countries and create problem. Men you guys are so violent. We will get extreme and will show you that if you don’t stop your big mouth. Leave our peaceful country and go home. Go and take drugs, go to pubs and have sex, shit you parents, tell lies and spread slander on you land…………. leave us alone.
As for the guy who got killed himself it’s all choreographed by people like Mike who brainwashed young people like Ismail so people like him can get a pretext to throw attacks on our peaceful nation and its Islamic culture. Man we know all too well “Mike” this is not Afghanistan, Pakistan or India. Try someplace else..
ismail did wot he thought was best for him and we cant blame him or anybody else for that...cause thats just the way this world operates...however if he may have been well informed of the basic principles and discipline of this short life by his parents or any stranger he may have chosen to live marry kids and take care of family friends enemies and even a whole society...i dont hear him as a criminal..murder rapist or any bad means...he is courageous enough to kill himself than to kill another human being..therefore i love him and respect him. he must have got a kind hearted family influenced him a nonviolent character...perhaps he was lacking the knowledge which is vital than just education...i wonder how many parents are able to feed the right info to the sensitive natured brains of their children..global government center (facebook)
doesn't it even matter that privacy of communications is not respected? whatever a person did or didn't do, there are certain standards that people and organisations including newspapers should stick to, i believe. And before lashing out at this, imagine your own emails or phone calls being observed and made public.
@yaamyn
Don't change the subject when you become fidgety!
You could not answer my question.
I repeat.
WHICH LIBERAL VALUES WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT not abandoning in favour of Arab/Afghan culture, while in the same breath you also said that even Arabs were pagans once.
Now is it me or you who is more apt to follow Arab culture as a model of paganism since you are fond of sticking to your great grand parents values (which values?)
@love
Did you say this?
"he is courageous enough to kill himself than to kill another human being.."
If someone troubles you so much to make your life miserable instead of confronting and fighting to save your honour,you kill yourself and let the culprits win? ARE YOU SURE THAT'S COURAGE AND NOT COWARDICE?
There are just a teeny bit more courageous (*winks*) people here in this forum like Ahmed Anomaly, yaamyn and so on, although they are fighting an anonymous war with unconventional weapons!
Now you found asylum in Hell, only God knows what is your reward.
@yaamyn
Did you say this?
"Bullying a person to the point of suicide is NOT the best way to ADVERTISE your religion"
Which religion was ADVERTISED here?! ATHEISM or ISLAM?
Hanging from the most eye catching tower in Maldives was NOT a Muslim showing-off his religion!
He should have been fined just before he died, for ADVERTISING without a permit!
u stupid intolerant piss-ants... u killed him.. wat ever the f----- happen to 'lakum dheenakum valiya dheeen".. and u called u muslims.. we will retaliate.. we shall unite and rise.. .. one matter im certain is u will be drained very much earlier than us.. for d regard we devote to our dullard families n elders, we were holding off for a convivial time to fight for our rights.. but not after this.. its war comrades..lets rise up and take the power back. its time the fat cats had a heart attack.. u know there time's coming to an end.. we have to unify and watch our flag ascend..
HAAA!
he was a weak subhuman. he couldn't stomach and for such trivial matter as personal belief. no matter how good he was, when he was alive.he made the wrong choice!
but curse it's parents for not supporting him. only a heartless mutter can do that. it(she) also needs to learn islam that after he turn adult animal.. its mutter bears no responsbility!
islaamee kanthathakaabehey emme mathee majlis.. is failen. they dunno islam even less than i do.
to the guy! rotting in the hells of the 3 abrahamic high lords! (yew/kris/slam).repetition sucks!
@yaamyn on Thu, 15th Jul 2010 9:40 PM
Y says: Ashfaq,
Y says:"It’s utterly pointless to attempt to show light to the willfully blind."
ME: Same to you? 😉 How can you show us light while you and your kind are in darkness? Get practical. We will not be intimidated by your words of anger out of your hatred and foolishness.
Y says:"your brand of ‘true Islam’ seems to have utterly positioned itself as an enemy of science – the very reason why so many Dhivehin reject it."
ME: We are not. You and your like are! “Enemies of Science, logic, factual and obvious evidences of GOD’s existence”. For your kind information at least most of "Dhivehin" does not reject it but enjoys it.
Y says:" Your sentences display such remarkable ignorance of science – and total buying into the tired, worn out propaganda that has been debunked a million times in the last few decades."
ME: Oh, Really! OK! I guess your supreme knowledge of science is one factor that you are rejecting "GOD". But did you know that most of the famous scientist believes in GOD's existence, but not models of gods. I don’t have any reason to believe you are one of them. Are you?
Check it out yourself: Famous Scientists Who Believed in God:
See the link: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html
The way they believe might be different but they all agreed in someway that GOD exists. This is the common term of understanding for all humans. The solution for all differences of humanity is to believe that we all are coming from one single source “GOD” and to him that we shall return. Why are we the only "conqueror" of this earth while there are more physically powerful and bigger creatures in this world? They will never be able to dominate or rule over us because GOD has given us one of his best gifts. “Our brain: the ability to think and act upon our desires and findings.” Then why not we all ask over selves if it is logical for us to reject his existence? What do we get by rejecting him?
One simple answer is: the "mischief" that was brought upon Europe because of Hitler, Mussolini, Lenin. And for that matter Mao of China as well. And many other tragic incidents recently and in the past. The main cause was that they all believed in themselves as Lords of their own by falsely misguided by the biggest lie that man had ever believed "The Evolution Theory or Darwin's Theory". Analyze the history, and learn real lessons out of it. If we are logical and truthful we will find the answers.
As a matter of fact I believe more than 100% and I have enough proofs that the Glorious Quran is the best book of guidance and this book consists of over 1000 verses out of over 6200 verses (signs, proofs, teachings) that has scientific information that was only proven to be 100% in conformity with the established scientific findings and facts just recently (300-20 years: The Glorious Quran is 1400 Years Old).
And let me tell you The Glorious Quran is not a book of "Science" but a book of "SIGNS".
Y says:"I’m not a scientist, and yet I can blow holes in your ridiculous assertions with just a secondary level learning of science."
ME: So you are not? I got at least one honest answer from you while you chose to ignore my reply to you in a previous comment and got on to quote me out of context from a general comment I made. Welcome! Let’s see who is truthful and correct here as well. I'm not a scientist myself, I must admit that. But I can prove that “Established Science” does not go against any scientific facts given in the Glorious Quran. And let me tell you again that The Glorious Quran is not a book of "Science" but a book of "SIGNS, PROOFS, TEACHINGS ".
It consists of several social and ethical guidelines for humanity and even stories describing events of past as parables. You may come up with those so called contradictions that your kind had made up out of your own desire to disapprove this. But no worries. 😉 Insha Allah, we have all the answers.
Y Says:"Here’s some choice sentence in your anti-science tirade, that you think is making a point for your religion.
“..to live a greedy life ..for an average 60-70 year..”
That average is a figure that is doubled from a few decades ago. Thanks to science (Immunization, nutrition, medicine, health care, diagnostics, X Rays, MRIs)
In fact, I believe the average life-expectancy in Afghanistan still hovers about the 40 mark."
Me:What's your point here? 😉 Even if that is 20 or 60, it doesn't matter. Your argument does not prove anything wrong that I have said.
By the way, let me give you a hint. The early Muslims developed all those medical scientific fundamentals that you are talking about. I’m sure you will know this but trying to conceal the truth just to prove a point. That is an old trick, my man… it won’t work now.
My text quoted out of context by Y: “BIG BANG.. it is totally against the scientific law where it is believed that every explosion will result in a chaotic situation..”
My actual text: Please go above to my comment : Ashfaq on Thu, 15th Jul 2010 7:12 PM
That starts as….
“There’s no doubt that the promoters of “Atheism” had dragged us in to sort of arguments that we wanted least. We now have enough tensions in our country to “concentrate”. One way or another we are being tested”
…… and goes on to the below topic in the same comment…..
“Are we to believe that ” BIG BANG” created a perfect universal system without any intervention of a super being ( We Mulims call him “Allah” {in Arabic, meaning Almighty Creator, God}) who is controlling the affairs of this universe and everything that is created, while it is totally against the scientific law where it is believed that every explosion will result in a chaotic situation.”
Can you see the difference and trick he is doing here when he quotes me out of context and tries to prove me wrong. Oh GOD! These people will try and do anything and everything that will make them feel good.
But no worries, you gave me another point and proof for me to lay down to my views. I’ll prove that both ways are correct.
Y says:"Eh? You’re quoting your ignorance (in fact, not you OWN ignorance, but that of Adnan Oktar and fellow non-scientific ignoramuses) of science to disprove something that scientists overwhelmingly agree upon?"
ME: Well I am aware there is a misconception on the actual BIG BANG theory and explosion phenomenon. But the scientists that you are talking about are still wondering about the theory. I am also aware that the BIG BANG basically talks about expanding universe. Even then the point is, that was even mentioned in the Glorious Quran.
Y says:Was the ‘Big Bang’ even an ‘explosion’ the way you picture it your mind?
Besides, which scientific law says that explosions result in “chaotic situations”?
Me: No, it is not my way of picturing but the same scientists that you are talking about had produced numerous documentaries that depict it as a primary explosion. And I don't find any fault with them. Their way of description is widely believed. As a matter of fact can you prove that there wasn’t any explosion in the initial stage of formation of the universe? You will only have one single answer “NO”.
But I have a hint for you: There was a primary explosion. But not the type of explosions you see it in this world. Weird? OK let me introduce to you one simple concept. We are humans and GOD is the almighty creator and for him it’s just his will and things will become created or destroyed the way he wishes. It must be very difficult to understand? Or you must be searching for some sorts of bashing words in your mind to counter this. Our human knowledge and logic is too inferior and can never be compared to GOD’s wisdom, power and knowledge.
THE Big Bang does not eliminate the fact that Universe was created in such a perfect manner , a system by a supernatural being who is far superior to be understood by our tiny little minds (We call him Almighty GOD, In Arabic “Allah”)
Are you telling me you and your kind are much more superior than the scientists who have established the most needed scientific facts and finding for the sake of humanity. Are we to believe you and your kind are much intelligent than those famous scientists who dedicated their entire life to bring to us such wonders and merciless of science in the light of their studies and experiments (most of those findings only gave proof to the correctness and divinity of the Glorious Quran and none of those had gone against any scientific fundamental information given in the Glorious Quran). Then who are ignorant? Us or your kind? I feel sorry for you.
Allah advices us all in Glorious Quran to search for the clues and facts and that he will make it known to us through the signs in his creations. (Here “us” means humanity as a whole. Don’t jump up with conclusions saying that then why all the findings were brought to existence by Non-Muslims. I have given a clue to that as well. And for more information you can do your research on scientific explorations my Muslims)
Y says: “I’ve studied a fundamental law of thermodynamics that states the entropy of a closed system, which is not in equilibrium, will always increase.”
ME: OK, explain it to me in a layman’s language. I am a layman as far as science is concerned. I thought you too admitted the same. In laymen’s language it is saying somewhat what I have written. Don’t try to fool us with your disbelief and superiority attitude. You don’t even know the basic principles of science and the scientific explorations, and don’t have a clue to differentiate between established facts of science and theories of science. Sorry but you deserve all the harsh criticism that we can target to you and your kind. You welcomed this.
On the other hand the beauty of the Glorious Quran is: God knows most of us would be so called “laymen” and revealed his signs, proofs, teachings through his prophets in the simplest manner that all can understand. The last and the final revelation was revealed through Prophet Mohamed (S.A.W), The Glorious Quran.
Y Says: The big bang is neither your average-ass imaginary “explosion” (Hint: Read into the origins of the usage of the term ‘Big Bang’) nor does the law thermodynamics often misquoted by arrogant, science and oxygen-deprived quacks who can’t differentiate between Evolution from the Big Bang make even the slightest case for your anti-science stance.
ME: The Glorious Quran is for those who think as well. If you are blindly believing all the things that you see and here without fact checking then I would like to return the same incendiary comments to you that was made to me on the above paragraph.
Difference is for us our supreme guidelines are in the Glorious Quran and modern established science has only made us closer to our creator.
Your kinds are dumb, deaf and blind. “They will twist everything for their own convenience out of hypocrisy and ignorance and disbelief.”
Let the world know that these type of people are none but from the “Party of Satan” who are devoted to lead the believers of GOD astray.
Don’t get offended but accept that is the reality. After all you have confessed your way of life and belief yourself. But still GOD is more merciful than you can even imagine. If someone truly and sincerely repents and get back to the path of GOD, he is surely to forgive. He is Oft-forgiving and most merciful to all his creations.
And if you have no desire to repent then it’s not our duty to force you to. We have nothing to do with your way of life and belief and don’t try to interfere with our way of life and our belief.
May Allah forgive me for any errors and unite all those who are truthful in our belief and faith.
Allah knows best.
MINIVAN NEWS STOP YOUR PROPAGANDA ON SPREADING ATHEISM. Aaniya , no one will merry you 🙂
Ashfaq, you start spewing practice garbage from peaceTV naik, then all hope is lost for you and for the rest of us.
FYI, cause and time could have started only after the bigbang, hence you can not apply the physical laws (of now) to pre-bigbang (when there was nothing)